pagan continuity hypothesis

Here is how I propose we are to proceed. They were relevant to me in going down this rabbit hole. This 'pagan continuity hypothesis' with a psychedelic twist is now backed up by biochemistry and agrochemistry and tons of historical research, exposing our forgotten history. There's evidence of the mysteries of Dionysus before, during, and after the life of Jesus, it's worth pointing out. And the truth is that this is a project that goes well beyond ancient history, because Brian is convinced that what he has uncovered has profound implications for the future of religion, and specifically, the future of his own religion, Roman Catholicism. He draws on the theory of "pagan continuity," which holds that early Christianity adopted . Are they rolling their eyes, or are you getting sort of secretive knowing nods of agreement? We know from the literature hundreds of years beforehand that in Elis, for example, in the Western Peloponnese, on the same Epiphany-type timeline, January 5, January 6, the priests would walk into the temple of Dionysus, leave three basins of water, the next morning they're miraculously transformed into wine. And not least because if I were to do it, I'd like to do so in a deeply sacred ritual. Mona Sobhani, PhD Retweeted. In May of last year, researchers published what they believe is the first archaeochemical data for the use of psychoactive drugs in some form of early Judaism. Maybe for those facing the end of life. And the quote you just read from Burkert, it's published by Harvard University Press in 1985 as Greek Religion. There's some suggestive language in the pyramid texts, in the Book of the Dead and things of this nature. Mark and Brian cover the Eleusinian Mysteries, the pagan continuity hypothesis, early Christianity, lessons from famed religious scholar Karen Armstrong, overlooked aspects of influential philosopher William James's career, ancient wine and ancient beer, experiencing the divine within us, the importance of "tikkun olam"repairing and . Because what tends to happen in those experiences is a death and rebirth. Little attempt has been made, however, to bridge the gap between \"pagan\" and \"Christian\" or to examine late antique, Christian attitudes toward sexuality and marriage from the viewpoint of the \"average\" Christian. Which is really weird, because that's how the same Dina Bazer, the same atheist in the psilocybin trials, described her insight. I might forward the proposition that I don't think the early church fathers were the best botanists. And I don't know if there's other examples of such things. And shouldn't we all be asking that question? "@BrianMuraresku with @DocMarkPlotkin The Eleusinian Mysteries, Discovering the Divine, The Immortality Key, The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis, Lessons from Scholar Karen Armstrong, and Much More" Please enjoy! But by and large, no, we don't really know. Now, that is part of your kind of interest in democratizing mysticism, but it also, curiously, cuts out the very people who have been preserving this tradition for centuries, namely, on your own account, this sort of invisible or barely visible lineage of women. You might find it in a cemetery in Mexico. And I'm not even sure what that piece looks like or how big it is. And I did not dare. That's just everlasting. I also sense another narrative in your book, and one you've flagged for us, maybe about 10 minutes ago, when you said that the book is a proof of concept. So I'm not convinced that-- I think you're absolutely right that what this establishes is that Christians in southern Italy could have-- could have had access to the kinds of things that have been recovered from that drug farm, let's call it. Here's your Western Eleusis. That event is already up on our website and open for registration. What was being thrown into it? So what do we know about those rituals? All he says is that these women and Marcus are adding drugs seven times in a row into whatever potion this is they're mixing up. I opened the speculation, Dr. Stang, that the Holy Grail itself could have been some kind of spiked concoction. Did the ancient Greeks use drugs to find God? Just imagine, I have to live with me. But the point being, the religion of brewing seems to pop up at the very beginning of civilization itself, or the very beginning of monumental engineering at this world's first sanctuary. Get personalized recommendations, and learn where to watch across hundreds of streaming providers. And how can you reasonably expect the church to recognize a psychedelic Eucharist? I just sense a great deal of structure and thoughtfulness going into this experience. BRIAN MURARESKU: I don't-- I don't claim too heavily. The only reason I went to college was to study classics. And there are legitimate scholars out there who say, because John wanted to paint Jesus in the light of Dionysus, present him as the second coming of this pagan God. It seems entirely believable to me that we have a potion maker active near Pompeii. The question is, what will happen in the future. Now you're a good sport, Brian. And I think it does hearken back to a genuinely ancient Greek principle, which is that only by fully experiencing some kind of death, a death that feels real, where you, or at least the you you used to identify with, actually slips away, dissolves. He has talked about the potential evidence for psychedelics in a Mithras liturgy. And I'm happy to see we have over 800 people present for this conversation. And all we know-- I mean, we can't decipher sequence by sequence what was happening. It was it was barley, water, and something else. CENTER FOR THE STUDY OF WORLD RELIGIONS, Harvard Divinity School42 Francis Avenue, Cambridge, Massachusetts 02138 617.495.4495, my.hds |Harvard Divinity School |Harvard University |Privacy |Accessibility |Digital Accessibility | Trademark Notice |Reporting Copyright Infringements. Mark and Brian cover the Eleusinian Mysteries, the pagan continuity hypothesis, early Christianity, lessons from famed religious scholar Karen Armstrong, overlooked aspects of influential philosopher William James's career, ancient wine and ancient beer, experiencing the divine within us, the importance of "tikkun olam"repairing and improving You mentioned there were lots of dead ends, and there certainly were. So it is already happening. I mean, so it was Greek. Read more 37 people found this helpful Helpful Report abuse Tfsiebs So much research! It's funny to see that some of the first basilicas outside Rome are popping up here, and in and around Pompeii. They followed Platonic (and other Greeks) philosophy. Well, let's get into it then. Now that doesn't mean, as Brian was saying, that then suggests that that's the norm Eucharist. Frankly, if you ask the world's leading archaeobotanists and archaeochemists, where's the spiked beer and where's the spiked wine, which I've been doing since about 2007, 2008, the resounding answer you'll get back from everybody is a resounding no. This book by Brian Muraresku, attempts to answer this question by delving into the history of ancient secret religions dating back thousands of years. And when we know so much about ancient wine and how very different it was from the wine of today, I mean, what can we say about the Eucharist if we're only looking at the texts? I try to be careful to always land on a lawyer's feet and be very honest with you and everybody else about where this goes from here. And if it only occurs in John, the big question is why. I appreciate this. That's our next event, and will be at least two more events to follow. What's different about the Dionysian mysteries, and what evidence, direct or indirect, do we have about the wine of Dionysus being psychedelic? In the first half, we'll cover topics ranging from the Eleusinian Mysteries, early Christianity, and the pagan continuity hypothesis to the work of philosopher and psychologist William James. That is, by giving, by even floating the possibility of this kind of-- at times, what seems like a Dan Brown sort of story, like, oh my god, there's a whole history of Christianity that's been suppressed-- draws attention, but the real point is actually that you're not really certain about the story, but you're certain is that we need to be more attentive to this evidence and to assess it soberly. BRIAN MURARESKU: Great question. These two accuse one Gnostic teacher named Marcus-- who is himself a student of the famous theologian Valentinus-- they accuse him of dabbling in pharmacological devilry. These-- that-- Christians are spread out throughout the eastern Mediterranean, and there are many, many pockets of people practicing what we might call, let's just call it Christian mysticism of some kind. And she talks about the visions that transformed the way she thinks about herself. And Ruck, and you following Ruck, make much of this, suggesting maybe the Gnostics are pharmacologists of some kind. If you are drawn to psychedelics, in my mind, it means you're probably drawn to contemplative mysticism. And that the proof of concept idea is that we need to-- we, meaning historians of the ancient world, need to bring all the kinds of resources to bear on this to get better evidence and an interpretive frame for making sense of it. The Immortality Key, The Secret History of the Religion With No Name. I think the only big question is what the exact relationship was from a place like that over to Eleusis. To this day I remain a psychedelic virgin quite proudly, and I spent the past 12 years, ever since that moment in 2007, researching what Houston Smith, perhaps one of the most influential religious historians of the 20th century, would call the best kept secret in history. And please just call me Charlie. Yeah. It's not to say that there isn't evidence from Alexandria or Antioch. So what have you learned about the Eleusinian mysteries in particular since Ruck took this up, and what has convinced you that Ruck's hypothesis holds water? To assess this hypothesis and, perhaps, to push it further, has required years of dogged and, at times, discouraging works in archives and archaeology. BRIAN MURARESKU: Right. Then I see the mysteries of Dionysus as kind of the Burning Man or the Woodstock of the ancient world. And I describe that as somehow finding that key to immortality. Do you think that the Christians as a nascent cult adapted a highly effective psycho technology that was rattling . But I don't hold-- I don't hang my hat on that claim. He was greatly influenced by Sigmund Freud (1940) who viewed an infant's first relationship - usually with the mother - as "the prototype of all later love-relations". And so the big hunt for me was trying to find some of those psychedelic bits. So what I think we have here in this ergtotized beer drink from Catalonia, Spain, and in this weird witch's brew from 79 AD in Pompeii, I describe it, until I see evidence otherwise, as some of the very first heart scientific data for the actual existence of actual spiked wine in classical antiquity, which I think is a really big point. Well, wonderful. And I think we get hung up on the jargon. BRIAN MURARESKU:: It's a simple formula, Charlie. #646: Brian C. Muraresku with Dr. Mark Plotkin The Eleusinian Mysteries, Discovering the Divine, The Immortality Key, The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis, Lessons from Scholar Karen Armstrong, and Much More The idea of the truth shall set you free, right, [SPEAKING GREEK], in 8:32. You're not confident that the pope is suddenly going to issue an encyclical. Here's the big question. And I think that's an important distinction to make. CHARLES STANG: Thank you, Brian. BRIAN MURARESKU: I would say I've definitely experienced the power of the Christ and the Holy Spirit. OK, now, Brian, you've probably dealt with questions like this. IMDb is the world's most popular and authoritative source for movie, TV and celebrity content. Let me start with the view-- the version of it that I think is less persuasive. That's, just absurd. Which, again, what I see are small groups of people getting together to commune with the dead. And the one thing that unites both of those worlds in this research called the pagan continuity hypothesis, the one thing we can bet on is the sacred language of Greek. CHARLES STANG: So it may be worth mentioning, for those who are attending who haven't read the book, that you asked, who I can't remember her name, the woman who is in charge of the Eleusis site, whether some of the ritual vessels could be tested, only to discover-- tested for the remains of whatever they held, only to learn that those vessels had been cleaned and that no more vessels were going to be unearthed. I would have been happy to find a spiked wine anywhere. We still have almost 700 with us. BRIAN MURARESKU: Right. Mark and Brian cover the Eleusinian Mysteries, the pagan continuity hypothesis, early Christianity, lessons from famed religious scholar Karen Armstrong, overlooked aspects of influential philosopher William James's career, ancient wine and ancient beer, experiencing the divine within us, the importance of "tikkun olam"repairing and . BRIAN MURARESKU: Right. To some degree, I think you're looking back to southern Italy from the perspective of the supremacy of Rome, which is not the case in the first century. Now, it doesn't have to be the Holy Grail that was there at the Last Supper, but when you think about the sacrament of wine that is at the center of the world's biggest religion of 2.5 billion people, the thing that Pope Francis says is essential for salvation, I mean, how can we orient our lives around something for which there is little to no physical data? One attendee has asked, "How have religious leaders reacted so far to your book? So why the silence from the heresiologists on a psychedelic sacrament? But I don't understand how that provides any significant link to paleo-Christian practice. And Dennis, amongst others, calls that a signature Dionysian miracle. Now, I've never done them myself, but I have talked to many, many people who've had experience with psychedelics. CHARLES STANG: All right. In this way, the two traditions coexisted in a syncretic form for some time before . The fact that the Vatican sits in Rome today is not an accident, I think, is the shortest way to answer that. There's all kinds of reasons I haven't done it. I mean, shouldn't everybody, shouldn't every Christian be wondering what kind of wine was on that table, or the tables of the earliest Christians? Like, what is this all about? The continuity hypothesis of dreams suggests that the content of dreams are largely continuous with waking concepts and concerns of the dreamer. There was an absence of continuity in the direction of the colony as Newport made his frequent voyages to and . Nage ?] And so how far should this investigation go? But I think the broader question of what's the reception to this among explicitly religious folk and religious leaders? So I present this as proof of concept, and I heavily rely on the Gospel of John and the data from Italy because that's what was there. And so for me, this was a hunt through the catacombs and archives and libraries, doing my sweet-talking, and trying to figure out what was behind some of those locked doors. Not just in Italy, but as kind of the headquarters for the Mediterranean. A lot of Christianity, as you rightly point out, I mean, it was an Eastern phenomenon, all over the eastern Mediterranean. CHARLES STANG: Brian, I wonder if you could end by reflecting on the meaning of dying before you die. If you die before you die, you won't die when you die. I have a deep interest in mysticism, and I've had mystical experiences, which I don't think are very relevant. Reviewed in the United States on January 29, 2023 And so I cite a Pew poll, for example, that says something like 69% of American Catholics do not believe in transubstantiation, which is the defining dogma of the church, the idea that the bread and wine literally becomes the flesh and blood. And that's what I get into in detail in the book. So this whole water to wine thing was out there. Which turns out, it may be they were. The Continuity Hypothesis was put forward by John Bowlby (1953) as a critical effect of attachments in his development of Attachment Theory. So I see-- you're moving back and forth between these two. CHARLES STANG: We've really read Jesus through the lens of his Greek inheritors. If the Dionysian one is psychedelic, does it really make its way into some kind of psychedelic Christianity? It is my great pleasure to welcome Brian Muraresku to the Center. I'd never thought before about how Christianity developed as an organized religion in the centuries after Jesus' murder. He calls it a drug against grief in Greek, [SPEAKING GREEK]. Brian is the author of a remarkable new book that has garnered a lot of attention and has sold a great many copies. Books about pagan continuity hypothesis? And you suspect, therefore, that it might be a placebo, and you want the real thing. Brian launched the instant bestseller on the Joe Rogan Experience, and has now appeared on CNN, NPR, Sirius XM, Goop-- I don't even know what that is-- and The Weekly Dish with Andrew Sullivan. Wonderful, well, thank you. I mean, that's obviously the big question, and what that means for the future of medicine and religion and society at large. Tim Ferriss Show #646: Brian C. Muraresku with Dr. Mark Plotkin: The Eleusinian Mysteries, Discovering the Divine, The Immortality Key, The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis, Psychedelics, and More. Despite its popular appeal as a New York Times Bestseller, TIK fails to make a compelling case for its grand theory of the "pagan continuity hypothesis with a psychedelic twist" due to recurring overreach and historical distortion, failure to consider relevant research on shamanism and Christianity, and presentation of speculation as fact." So after the whole first half of the book-- well, wait a minute, Dr. Stang. CHARLES STANG: All right. And all along, I invite you all to pose questions to Brian in the Q&A function. So the big question is, what kind of drug was this, if it was a drug? For those who didn't have the time or the money or the temerity to travel all the way to Eleusis from Spain, here's your off-site campus, right? 283. That's staying within the field of time. So your presentation of early Christianity inclines heavily toward the Greek world. So the event happens, when all the wines run out, here comes Jesus, who's referred to in the Gospels as an [SPEAKING GREEK] in Greek, a drunkard. Throughout his five books he talks about wine being mixed with all kinds of stuff, like frankincense and myrrh, relatively innocuous stuff, but also less innocuous things like henbane and mandrake, these solanaceous plants which he specifically says is fatal. They were mixed or fortified. Nage ?] So in the mountains and forests from Greece to Rome, including the Holy Land and Galilee. Let me just pull up my notes here. When Irenaeus is talking about [SPEAKING GREEK], love potions, again, we have no idea what the hell he's talking about. What was the wine in the early Eucharist? I'm going to come back to that idea of proof of concept. That is about the future rather than the ancient history. You become one with Christ by drinking that. From about 1500 BC to the fourth century AD, it calls to the best and brightest of not just Athens but also Rome. And in his book [? Do the drugs, Dr. Stang? So I really follow the scholarship of Enriqueta Pons, who is the archaeologist on site there, at this Greek sanctuary that we're talking about in Catalonia, Mas Castellar des Pontos. It still leaves an even bigger if, Dr. Stang, is which one is psychedelic? He's the god of wine. That's all just fancy wordplay. And if it's one thing Catholicism does very, very well, it's contemplative mysticism. Well, the reason I mention Hippolytus and Marcus and focus on that in my evidence is because there's evidence of the Valentinians, who influenced Marcus, in and around Rome. I include that line for a reason. But what we do know is that their sacrament was wine and we know a bit more about the wine of antiquity, ancient Greek wine, than we can piece together from these nocturnal celebrations. Wise not least because it is summer there, as he reminds me every time we have a Zoom meeting, which has been quite often in these past several months. But it survives. Church of the Saints Faustina and Liberata, view from the outside with the entrance enclosure, at "Sante" place, Capo di Ponte (Italy). After the first few chapters the author bogs down flogging the Pagan Continuity Hypothesis and exulting over his discovery of small scraps of evidence he found in a decade of research. So, although, I mean, and that actually, I'd like to come back to that, the notion of the, that not just the pagan continuity hypothesis, but the mystery continuity hypothesis through the Vatican. Oh, I hope I haven't offended you, Brian. And why, if you're right that the church has succeeded in suppressing a psychedelic sacrament and has been peddling instead, what you call a placebo, and that it has exercised a monstrous campaign of persecution against plant medicine and the women who have kept its knowledge alive, why are you still attached to this tradition?

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